This post is almost entirely a bunch of navel-gazing and is probably uber-boring. You’ve been warned.
I’m feeling pretty eeeeehhhhhhh about my research and about being a postdoc lately. It’s weird.
I like my research question. I like it a lot. Most of the time, I really like doing the experiments too. I’m pretty hooked on the primary technique and I get kind of giddy about analyzing the data.
I like my mentor. I like him a lot. We communicate well, and I’m learning a lot of skills from him that were really lacking in my grad school training. That’s pretty cool.
So, I’m feeling a little weird about feeling apathetic about my job and my continued position as a postdoc.
There’s probably several reasons for this:
I tend to go through a trajectory of career and research excitement that runs from “OMG! This is the best job EVAR”! to “DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM I hate everything about my life and it’s all because shit never works in the lab and I can’t pay my fucking bills and that suuuuuuccccckkkkkkkssssss.” I’d say in an ordinary 30 day period I probably hit the high and low of that trajectory at least once. So, maybe I’m just in a down-swing.
But maybe it’s more than just that. I’m coming up on the end of my “contract” period (which, let’s be honest, is not really a contract at all since I live in a state where your employer can basically fire you on a whim if they so choose, but whatever). My original “contract” was for 12 months, with renewal contingent upon me securing my own funding. This is quite typical nowadays in my field. My PI is pretty new and has not yet secured his first R01, though he writes for them like a fucking machine. I recently got scores back on my NRSA – they were decent – but we won’t know whether it’s funded or not until after council review and the Congressional NIH appropriations bill or some shit is decided. I’m choosing not to worry about the NRSA scores since they’re out of my hands at this point.
However, I am thinking about the what ifs…What if I don’t get this NRSA, and what if PI still doesn’t have an R01? Can he still support me? Will he still support me? What if he can’t/won’t? What if I end up unemployed? How long will it take me to find another position? Should I start looking now, just in case? Would that be a faux pas? Should I look outside of academia? What if I do and I get offered a position? Do I want to leave academia? Do I really want to stay? What if this is the only job I could ever be happy at? What if I choose to do something else for a while and find that I hate it and can’t break back into academic research? What if I don’t take that risk, and stay in academia, and end up living hand-to-mouth for the rest of my life? What if my life/job/whatever is meaningless?
Sometimes I can’t tell the difference between an existential crisis and melodrama. Anyone else have this problem?
There’s also this thing: I was hired to this lab to lead a particular project. (Let’s not kid ourselves with that “lead” business though – my minions are undergrads with full class schedules, so this really means that I *do* the particular project.) I was hired because I have a particular skill set that this lab did not, and our interests meshed really well in a way that would allow me to really take this skill set and my BigQuestionBiology in a new and exciting direction, while also taking the particulars of this new lab’s questions into new territory. Everyone was pretty excited about this, so we started plotting our world domination before I even started here.
There’s one small problem though. I was hired to do this particular project, and was told that everything was going to be all sunshine and unicorns because the department just got a big fucking grant to buy the shiny new toy that makes this project possible. Awesome!, says I, “when can I start?” But then, the shiny new toy didn’t show up for another 8 months. No problem, I had some new techniques and a new system to learn, and some new reagents to put together. I kept myself busy, and made some progress so that we could hit the ground running once it showed up. And then, when it got here, it turns out that it can’t actually do the thing upon which I had premised the most central aspects of this project. I was pretty crushed.
I’m also feeling a little like, “why am I here?” about this. Why would they hire me to do this job for which we do not actually have the tools? Well, because they thought we did. Why would they tell me we were going to get these critical tools when we got something else entirely? Well, either they didn’t think through why this wouldn’t really work, or since they are not experts in this particular technique, they just didn’t know any better.
Can we work around this problem? Sure, but not gracefully. The analysis will be a total mess with any conceivable work-around strategy. It will also ratchet down the impact of this project quite a few notches. We simply aren’t going to be able to make the same conclusions with these work-arounds that we would have been able to with the original strategy (but hey, sometimes that’s science, right?).
The thing is, I can do the work-arounds, but I’m pretty fucking bummed about that. I was really looking at this postdoc as an opportunity to really push things forward with this research question and at the same time sort of establish myself as someone who can do this pretty fucking awesome thing which can answer a whole host of questions for your fields and mine and so don’t you want to hire me? Now, instead of that, I’m going to have to McGyver a bunch of shit to make some tiny incremental advancement in a narrow question that not that many people really care about. If we can even get it published what with the messy analysis. McGyvering shit is cool, incremental advancements in stuff nobody cares about is less so.
I just…this is not what I signed on for.
But I don’t have any other hot options just waiting for me either.
I had another side project, just in case things got sticky with the primary one, which is always a good idea. But after spending several months on it, PI just killed it to save resources. I totally get why he did this – he’s really starting to feel the heat with respect to his funding situation, and he’s trying to be responsible and put time and money and effort into the stuff that’s going to get us some papers and him some grants and fast! But it also means that now all my eggs are in one basket, and resources-wise, that one really wasn’t a big drain.
And then there’s the fact that I’m starting to feel the heat. I’m getting a lot of “I really need you to be a role model to the grad students AA and that means getting out a paper per year. You’ve been here almost a year and your project isn’t close to publication yet.” I know that this is him dealing with the pressure to publish so he can get some more funding, and I do think it’s important to be a good role model to the grad students. I would be pretty fucking excited to have a paper ready for publication about now. But that’s not realistic.
I came to this lab with the expectation that the tools would be in place for me to hit the ground running with adapting this technique to the new labs system. I anticipated that this would take between 3 and 5 months, considering that I would also be adapting *myself* to a new system, and that I would be the only expert in this particular technique, so I’d have to do most of the trouble-shooting without the advantage of other people with this experience.
That’s not what happened though. The tools were not here for the first 8 months. That’s OK, I got a head start on learning a new field, and building some reagents, and I even got a fellowship written! But then the tools arrived and I find that they can’t do what I needed them to do, and so if I want to keep pursuing this question it’s going to take realistically at least another 6 months to adapt some kind of work-around and generate some data…assuming that it works. I repeat: what am I doing here? And will it get me where I need to go?
Part of my dooooooommmmmmm feelings might also be attributed to the fact that I’m facing some pretty strong impetus to move overseas at the moment and so there’s a good chance that I’m sort of psyching myself up for being ready to leave here if circumstances dictate.
And part of it is also watching my PI and other young profs keep running into that brick wall of funding (or lack thereof) and pick themselves up and try again, and again, and again, even though they’re worried as fuck about whether or not they’ll make it, and probably asking themselves all those same what ifs that I am.
I repeat: what am I doing here? And do I want to stay here in this limbo for the next 10 years? If not, where else should I be?


17 comments:
Wow. First of all - breathe. Breathe deeply. I don't really think this is navel-gazing - panic, maybe. But it's probably a good thing - to check in periodically.
I guess if I were in your shoes and worried about productivity, read publications - is write a review paper. It's not original research, but they often get some of the highest citations. If you write in the area that your postdoc project is in, then there isn't really a lost year. If that doesn't work, ask the PI if he has any datasets/unfinished projects sleeping in the back of his cptr -something that you could write up.
Second, I would definitely be looking for jobs. It would be dumb to rely on getting funding and I don't think that anyone expects any less. Dr.Add'EmUp wasn't happy but he also knew that I had to do what was best for me.
Third, consider what other options there are outside academia and if any of those might be a good fit. I did this and it helped a lot. In fact, I found a renewed energy to try academia. Of course I gave myself a deadline, knowing that if it didn't work out, meh, there were other things I could do.
Yes, I'll second that - breathe! :)
You need to be a in place where you are glad to be there doing your work (which is interesting) AND where you can really learn something/progress towards the next job. If that's not where you are, you have no obligation to stay. I'd say you have an obligation to yourself NOT to stay.
The other thing I will say is there is little certainty in the world, whether it's academic, government, or industry. Just like there's politics and bull$hit no matter where you go. So that I wouldn't worry so much about - if you're accumulating new skills and experiences in each job, you're just better prepared to find the next, *awesomer* job.
You summed up my two postdocs. I got to each place, ready to hit the ground running, and what happened? I had to outsource the work for postdoc #1. Then I waited and waited for collaborators and data. 8 months later, nothing. I continued doing my PhD work and publishing with my PhD advisor in the meantime. But I didn't do a postdoc to keep doing the same shit I was doing. I turned down invited papers because I didn't have any new data from my PhD projects or my postdoc projects. I wrote grants but without prelim data, not funded of course. It was total bullshit. I wrote a popular review paper and it's been a big hit, so I get invites to talk here and there, but I have no new research in that area to talk about anymore!
I went into postdoc #2 having asked all the right questions from the mistakes I made with the first postdoc. What happened? A whole new round of shit. The funding situation was great, but the PI had no spine and I was squatting in another PIs lab to do most of the work. Every day was another pissing match between PIs over equipment where my boss backed down every time and told me to follow suit. If he's not fighting for the project to be done well, fuck it. I wasn't gonna fight either. Mentally checked out.
Yes, apply for jobs. APPLY APPLY APPLY. It will take you a LONG time to land something that suits you. The job market is awful, so start networking right now.
Chances are that if you stay in academia, you WILL be living hand to mouth, you will be overworked and underpaid, you will spin your wheels for years.
If you do start looking at job ads, and you find that you are missing some skills that are required for jobs you think could mostly do, then get trained up any way you can. This is where you really need to start adapting to what you see posted in the jobs as required skills and experience. Use the "downtime" during your postdoc to beef up transferable skills so you can put down on applications that you know how to do X, Y, and Z. Assemble a resume.
I went through every thought you had, up and down, down and up, constantly. I took a long hard look at what I wanted, and academia was not it. I thought it was. I'm still transitioning from feeling like a failure to feeling like I'm making progress on where I want to be at this age in my life. The colleagues who did get TT jobs are in hell, some have already left, some are applying elsewhere (mostly to be closer to family because of their new babies). I am also seeing tenured colleagues leaving because they are sick of students, admin/dept bullshit, and lack of funding.
Nothing is stable anymore, nothing is permanent. It's sucky everywhere. You have to look out for you, be able to pay your bills, not go bonkers, and make some progress on your career for better things in the future.
Hugs, jc
I just wanted to say that I felt exactly the same way when I was in the limbo of first to second postdoc and now the fear of uncertainty hasn't really left yet. Why am I continuously living in limbo? Struggling along when friends who have spent less time at uni slide into a job and seem like they will have that forever? Is it really worth it? I like doing my work, but does anyone actually take me seriously? Its a terrible spot to be in. I have two recommendations, one is to have a hobby, just something outside research that will still be there if it all falls through. Then you haven't lost everything (and I really hope it doesn't come down to that). The second recommendation follows your other commentors: start applying for more postdocs and for other jobs that you think you might be happy in. Have a talk to you PI to see if you will or could be kept around if no funding comes through for you. See if you could get your work funded by some alternative source and if so, get that application started. Basically start getting things in motion as soon as possible. I hope it works out!
AA, I think most if not all postdocs go through the same thing mentally as they start out. Even for those who have fellowships, security is only temporary, and even they'll have to think 'what next?' soon. It seems that its still relatively early days for you in your postdoc. I'd suggest that you think of some bread-and-butter type projects (1 or 2), stuff that you know will yield a result one way are the other. If I were you, I'd have a realistic, but positive conversation with the advisor telling him that you intend to get this or that done in the next 4 or 5 months or so (even if it is a minor manuscript). Sometimes, advisors are most concerned if they *think* that we are not planning well or something. If they know we are serious and have a proper plan, they sometimes get off your back. Communicating the plan helps us also stay on track better. Wish you the best.
What gc said. Also,
I know you like your advisor, but I hate to break it to you, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. If he did, he would have known the equipment might be delayed by months or a year, and made contingency plans, and he would have felt bad about promising things to you that he couldn't guarantee (so he would have at least warned you that delays were likely). He wouldn't have killed your side project if he cared about your career. He's barely keeping his head above water and he's not going to be much help to you, even if he has good intentions, because he doesn't really know how.
I agree that the McGyver route is not worth doing unless it's going to have a big enough impact.
I don't agree that just looking for another job is going to help you unless you really think it through. It's all too easy to jump ship and end up going from the frying pan into the fire.
And looking for a job is a seriously time-consuming project of its own.
Seems to me you have two options if you want to keep working on something related to your project.
1. Get a senior PI as your co-advisor or new advisor. This person should have sufficient funding and stability and equipment for you to do what you originally proposed, and not have to worry immediately about whether your NRSA will get funded this round or on revision.
2. Get a mid-level PI as a co-advisor, collaborator, or new advisor. By this I mean, someone who is peri-tenure age. This is riskier, but it might be ideal.
Here's my thinking. Senior people are sometimes too old, too out of touch, too apathetic. On the other hand, they'll usually pretty much just leave you alone. You might not get much mentoring, but you should be able to do your project.
Mid-level people usually still have some go-getter spirit, but on the other hand you risk working with someone who is freaking out about tenure, which is one of those coin-flip risks: it's either all-good (Let's Go Get 'Em!!!!) or all-bad (evil micromanaging emotional abuse nonsense).
But yes, you do need to focus on what you've recently realized: these kinds of delays, broken promises (whether through shortsightedness, apathy or greed), and funding stress pretty much epitomize life in the Scientific Academy.
Is that really what you want to do for the rest of your life?
Personally, I struggled a lot and decided that I still did want to do it, but the evil sharky-ness was what really got to me. From PIs of all ages (but also, all men). I could put up with all the rest of it if I hadn't had to deal with Creepy Evil, too.
I wish I had thought more seriously about leaving sooner. I had that feeling of DOOMMM and I was too panicky (and isolated) to figure out what it meant.
Definitely put together your resume and look around, see what there is both academic and otherwise. Talk to your advisor, maybe he just needs a pep talk or a stern reminder that he's responsible for your coming there. Maybe he'll be totally on-board with you having a co-advisor and even suggest someone once you broach the topic. But be prepared for him to be upset and/or threatened by the suggestion. Reassure him by saying that you really like working with him and you don't want to leave, but you just can't get your project done and remind him that you have to look out for your own career path. And see what he says. His response will tell you a lot about his potential to grow as a mentor.
And... good luck. Hang in there. Email me at yfsblog at gmail if you want to talk more details offline.
However, I am thinking about the what ifs…What if I don’t get this NRSA, and what if PI still doesn’t have an R01? Can he still support me? Will he still support me? What if he can’t/won’t? What if I end up unemployed? How long will it take me to find another position? Should I start looking now, just in case?Would that be a faux pas? Should I look outside of academia? What if I do and I get offered a position? Do I want to leave academia? Do I really want to stay? What if this is the only job I could ever be happy at? What if I choose to do something else for a while and find that I hate it and can’t break back into academic research? What if I don’t take that risk, and stay in academia, and end up living hand-to-mouth for the rest of my life? What if my life/job/whatever is meaningless?
I would suggest sitting down and having a conversation with your PI about his and your funding situation. Ask him if he can afford to keep you if you don't get the NRSA, if there is a departmental training grant that can cover you, etc...
I'll add that I've spent much of my time as postdoc, and probably will as a TT faculty member (if I ever get a job/funding/etc) asking a lot of these same questions. I've come to believe that it's just a part of this career track. I've stuck with it because I can't imagine doing something else (although I have a solid back-up plan in case it all goes to shit). It's completely normal to feel this way, though I'm sure that doesn't make you feel much better right now. ;)
Thank you so much for posting this. I started my post-doc the same time you started yours. I'm having all the same feelings you are. I'm waiting for funding decisions. My PI can keep me if I don't get funded, but I feel like getting a fellowship is important for climbing up the next step in the academic ladder. I've learned a lot of new things but I also feel like I'm slipping into work that was very similar to my grad work, and that is not the direction I want to go in. I moved away from family, friends, and serious boyfriend for this *awesome* opportunity and now I'm questioning that decision. Part of me thinks about leaving academics, but I really think its the job for me if I just stick with it.
I don't want to bring up these apprehensive feelings to my PI because, despite the fact that he is all around great and supportive, I'm worried that I would be seen as weaker than other post-docs who seem to be super-focused and who seem to be blind to the sacrifices(or just not care about them) that must be made to stay in academics.
Again, thank you for sharing. There are others out there feeling the same way. I just keep telling myself that, in the end, no matter where I end up, life will go on; things will work out one way or another; as long as I'm happy, nothing else matters.
Best of luck.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. It's helpful to hear other people's perspectives.
To be clear, I'm not panicking, just frustrated. Trying to be proactive about my career direction and make good decisions about that.
Yes, some of the hiccups are down to the PI's inexperience or ignorance with respect to when the tools would be in place (and whether they would be suitable for this project). Some of the hiccups are down to the fickle nature of research and I'm trying to parse which is which and figure out which are problems I can solve and which require that we take a new approach here.
Also, though my PI is inexperienced, in many many aspects he is the best mentor I've ever had, and much better than I thought I could expect. Deciding to move on from this lab to one headed by a more experienced PI at this point could alleviate some of the hiccups, but could bring a world of hurt, too. I've seen bad mentoring first-hand and I have NO desire to go back to that.
Picking up a "bread and butter" project in this lab is good advice as far as productivity, but it would also mean going back to the kids of things I was doing as a grad student. Training-wise, I don't think I have much more to learn there. Scientific-question wise, yeah, some progress could be made there, but it's not the sort of thing I would want to set myself up for doing in the long term (like, for the rest of *my* career). However, if that's what it takes to get a publication out of this postdoc and move onto a second one that can give me the opportunities to do things I do want to build a career out of, I'm open to that.
Having a more senior co-advisor is also good advice - I have one of those but zie is in a strictly advisory role - no $$$. I should probably spend some more time talking to this person in addition to my primary PI.
Basically, PI and I need to have a sit-down and discuss funding, my relative job security here, and the possibility of me applying for jobs elsewhere in case he can't keep me on. We also need to talk about project directions in case he can. I'm trying to sort out my thoughts before we have this meeting so I can be clear about what I want/need in this situation, and what I can do while I'm here.
Thanks again for your thoughts, we'll see how it goes.
Dr. O - I think you're probably right about these sorts of questions never really going away on this career trajectory - a lot of the young PI blogs I read suggest that you're correct. I can't decide yet whether I'm happy just coming to terms with that. I'm also not sure if sticking with this, with all it's frustrations, just because it's currently the path of least resistance (in that I don't have a solid backup plan), is really a good decision for me in terms of long-term happiness and mental health. That's no judgment on your decision to do so - not at all. Just not sure if it's the right one for me. Would you care to share what your backup plan is?
First, do some progressive relaxation. Then accept the fact that many of us go through this excitement/hatred cycle quite frequently in academia. But unfortunately, you hold the answers. It just takes some soul searching and time - and the time part really sucks :-(
"I really need you to be a role model to the grad students AA"
Does it count if you're a role model to me? :)
There's certainly nothing wrong or bad about looking for a job. IOf your PI can't guarantee you a job for the next year or so, you'd be foolish to hope that unemployment happens to others.
The big question you need to identify an answer to is whether staying at the bench for now is what you want. With a one year, zero pub PD under your belt, you're looking at another postdoc or two at least (4-6yyrs) before you can look at the TT...
It fucking sucks, but it's a choice you need to think about. If another postdoc to test the waters is OK, then you need to start looking now. And you need to ask your PI to be honest with you about your future in his/her lab. It's your future, not just theirs.
Dr. Cynicism - What's "progressive relaxation"?
Samia - Somehow I think he means *his* undergrads ;)
Yeah, I need to have an honest talk with the guy about funding/employment. I am a big chicken about this. Commence psyching myself up for it: now.
It is comforting to read that others feel and experience what I am going through as a postdoc!! Roller coaster thoughts, spanning from excitement to complete depression and wondering why am I here doing that?
Thank YOU!
AA> it sounds a bit when I was in my middle time at post doc- funding was unclear, I put off the discussion since it felt hard but in the end, oh boy I wish I would've done that talk earlier since part of my stress was the "unknowing".
That said, there is something about this situation that is "everlasting" in science/academia. You seldom nowadays have more than 3 years of money, after that it's "we'll see if things pan out" and I think some ppl seem to work with this uncertainty better than others (i'm not there ;) )
It might also be helpful to think about that tt probably don't get "let go" within a month. I'm not sure if you have talked to PI about the time frame, if the money doesn't come through but you need to do that in any event. My PI and I had an understanding that it would be between 3 and 6 months from the "talk" (i.e. there is no money) until I would have to leave the lab due to money not being there. that gave me a bit more secure feeling in my tummy.
AA, I'm sorry to read you are having to stress about funding. It seems like you already have some good advice in this comment section, so I won't be redundant. I will say, however, that I seem to run through these questions on a monthly basis as well. I feel like as long as I stay in academia and have to worry about getting funding, I am always going to have these questions. I just hope that when (if) I become a TT, they won't be quite as frequent.
Good luck.
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